Topic: Stop the maddness; think a little bit.

Pact history is now close to 20 years old, the first three years contracts stated the word guaranteed, but afterwards the word guaranteed was removed. Wonder why?
We currently have two children in a State University and we pay tuition just like everyone else. We decided not to invest in PACT after discussion with a financial advisor. We felt we could invest in the market just like PACT was doing and come out just as well. We have seen decreases in our investments just like PACT, however the investments have made a super come back over the past year and are posed to continue, again this is no guarantee either.
My point is this. I agree that those contract which stated guarantee should be paid and whatever is left over paid out until the money is exhausted.
It's unfair to the universities and to others who will have to pay for your children if the tuition is capped. PACT was a good concept but the way it was invested was not. Contracts early on where to cheap and therefore the results are what you have now. I say pay it out to all and then go and invest your money, at least this way you know what you really have. Don't expect me to pay for your children as well as my own.

Re: Stop the maddness; think a little bit.

mc,

I know how you feel. Every year I pay a lot of taxes that go toward paying off debts from which I'll never reap any reward. Unfortunately, that's life.

Your facts are a little off as guarantees lasted for more than 3 years. Please see my earlier post on the topic of guarantees from both an actual and a legal view. And you can refer to links from this post to see what Alabama law said up until 2001.

I understand your opinion that some contracts were not guaranteed and perhaps shouldn't be paid at all. I suggest that this didn't occur until much later than you think (early 2000's) from a legal standpoint, and there is no bright line defining exactly what should be construed as a guarantee and what shouldn't because each & every year the Treasurer seemed to muddle w/ some aspect of the contract, brochure, or disclaimer, along w/ the aforementioned changes to the law. This tinkering to attempt to remove any thought of a guarantee is exactly the smoking gun that our courts will see as supporting an argument that guarantees must have existed or why the continued changes?

It could save some money to attempt to split the PACT owners into 2 groups - 1 w/ guarantees and 1 w/out, but I suggest that the overwhelming majority of contracts would fall into the former class as sales really dwindled down in the later years as the contracts that were sold were much more expensive, so that refunding these few but costly contracts would have little if any impact on the overall deficit.

Even though you didn't invest in PACT, as a taxpayer you should be furious w/ Ivey and the PACT Board. They remained overinvested in aggressive equities long into the market downturn, and then suddenly decided to move to fixed assets almost at the bottom of the cycle. They've totally missed the rebound which could have offset part of the deficit.

I'm sorry your financial planner steered you away from PACT. I also could have invested my money elsewhere, but nowhere else could I find a guarantee from the State of Alabama. There are a lot of lawyers in our legislature. While they haven't yet agreed on the funding method, their unanimous votes should tell you and others that they have reviewed the matter and know that these guarantees are real. Fighting this will only cost you, and me, more tax dollars.

Because I'm a broken record, I'll take this opportunity to reiterate that the Trust Fund has more than enough money to cure this problem w/out any direct impact to taxpayers.

KB

Re: Stop the maddness; think a little bit.

mc,

I can understand your frustration with these PACT people. College tuition continues to rise and here comes these people wanting you to pay for their children’s educations. Even the university presidents and other university system officials are giving you fair warning about these PACT people putting these huge burdens on non-PACT students with these tuition caps. How much can this burden be? Well, I put a pencil to paper for a rough calculation and made a calculation with some assumptions from information that I have read from various sources: 10% of university students on PACT, 90% are not; general needed/required tuition increase is about 10% but PACT students would be responsible for 2.5% of this increase so the non-PACT student would catch the 10% increase plus the difference that the PACT students were exempt from; and finally, that the secure investments that the PACT program were required to put the funds in yielded the required 5% i.e. no help from the “flexible” cap that is in the current bill in Montgomery. What I found, granted that it was a rough calculation, was that the amount of incremental burden on the non-PACT students was 0.83% meaning that they would have a 10.83% increase where the PACT student (actually the PACT program) would pay a 2.5% increase (in addition to the actual tuition). What does this mean in actual dollars? If tuition is $6,000 per year, then a 10% increase would be $600 dollars and a 10.83% increase would be $650, meaning that the non-PACT student’s extra burden is $50 for that year. I was surprised because while a $50 bill is nothing to sneeze at, it is nowhere as bad or as crushing as I was being lead to believe by a recent article by the university presidents and officials. To check the sensitivity to the other variables, I changed the general tuition increase to 7% and it turned out that the yearly incremental burden was $30 per year (the non-PACT student bearing a 7.5% increase or an extra one-half %). Since there is a flexible cap that allows PACT to bear more than a 2.5% increase if investments grow higher than the minimum 5% required. So say tuition had to go up 10% and the investment made 6%, then the PACT program would absorb a 3.5% tuition increase and therefore the non-PACT student would bear a 10.72% increase and incrementally only 0.72% (or $43 per year) more than the PACT student. Also as the number of PACT students decreases (as it should) and the total university population increases (as it has), the percent of PACT students should therefore decrease so there is less of a burden to share among non-PACT students. I am not an accountant and am just using a little basic algebra to make sense of he situation and don’t think that I am that far off in determining the truth of tuition caps. Hopefully the proposed changes to the PACT Board that require that some members be highly-qualified in investment management would mean that some investments with “safe” returns higher than 5% ought to be secured. Given all this, I am concluding that some smoke is being blown by the universities about how bad this bill would affect the non-PACT students. One thing that I recently learned was that the universities are giving a huge discount (50%?) to out-of-state non-resident students who live (have an address?) within a 50-mile radius of campus because they get to pay in-state resident tuition, which in total amounts to over $20 million dollars each year. I think this is ridiculous myself that when the PACT people (who are close to 98% Alabama residents) ask for a little help, the universities don’t offer any relief because it would not be fair to the non-PACT students while they are giving a huge discount to non-residents. Sounds fishy to me. Also keep in mind that PACT students bear all the other costs of books and rooming and meal plans, etc. so it is not the free ride that may be implied by some.

Another thing that bothers me is that when I have visited the various campuses, I see lots of new buildings under construction, bus services, etc. I know that much of the capital money for construction is coming from federal earmarks and rich contributors but I would imagine that some comes from tuition money and once these buildings are built, they have to be air conditioned, heated, maintenanced (inside and out), insured, etc. throughout the year even when it is likely used only a few hours a day. I would also have to assume that that money comes from tuition dollars or at least part of it does for these operating expenses. My point is that currently tuition is controlled by the universities and they are increasing their costs each year and passing it on to students (and their parents) through increased tuition (or mandatory fees) to a point that either a student has to have rich parents or parents who take out second mortgages and work second jobs or the students have to bear the burden of these student loans for many years and cannot enjoy the fruits of a college education because of their debt load. In this economy, everyone even universities should be cutting back so that they can give students an affordable (and quality) education. Unfortunately, the empire gets bigger without any say by anyone and that is how the major universities want it. Of the student loan that a graduating student carries, what portion was really necessary for a quality education and what portion is part is something unnecessary? I believe in free enterprise and if a person wants to sell a quality product to the public for the highest price that customers will pay, that is fine, if the price gets too high, then people will stop and he will have to evaluate his price vs. profits. This doesn’t happen here, if you can’t afford UA or AU, you can’t afford out of state tuition somewhere else, and unless I am mistaken, despite the quality of other universities across the state, the earning potential of graduating from the majors is higher. But I also believe that as an extension of the state government that gets tax dollars and is supposed to serve the people of Alabama, some limit needs to be put all tuition so that the child of a taxpayer can go get a quality education at a reasonable cost at any university in the state as long as they meet the admission requirements.

The universities have been beneficiaries of the PACT program for 20 years and the PACT program has paid the ever increasing tuition without question for 20 years and now the universities don’t want to help, they simply want to continue getting a blank check

Last, I have gone to these PACT rallies and I have seen the numerous parents and grandparents that made huge sacrifices so that they could buy into a program that was sold by the state as guaranteed or at least implied as guaranteed in later years (or not really told different). Especially with those that have kids/grandkids in or near college and there is no time to go to an alternate plan. It is wrong and simply dishonorable for these major universities to have benefited off the backs of these people and not give them some aid when they need it. And it is also wrong and dishonorable for the State of Alabama to not honor all these contracts they sold whether they are guaranteed or not. These people thought that not only were they buying something of great value for their children/grandchildren, they were also investing in the future of the state so that it could prosper too. I pray that the universities come to the table and show the honor I think that they have as Alabamians but that has been missing so far in this matter.

Bama88

Last edited by Bama88 (04-10-2010 10:24:53 am)

Re: Stop the maddness; think a little bit.

Bama 88, that was one outstanding, well thought out post!! five star!!

Re: Stop the maddness; think a little bit.

Thursday, after observing the House at work, I sat and listened to an attorney speak to the nature of contract law, what the Alabama Constitution, and the US Constitution have to say about the situatioin with PACT. Some of the things he said I have been saying, or thinking, for some time. (1.) We were sold pre-paid tuition; our contracts specify, defined benefits to which we, or our beneficiciaries, are entitled. We did not "invest" in a financial market product; we have no control over the money we paid; we would reap no profit over and above college tuition at a state college or university. This is unlike people who chose to invest in the markets, who control where their money is invested and can spend their dividends on anything they wish to, including a trip to Hawaii instaed of paying for college tutition. The state of Alabama gets anything left-over in PACT fund, if there would be anything.
(2) There is no difference in the defined benefit in contracts that say "garanteed" and those that do not use the term. The analogy used went like this: "If you promise to pay me a hundred dollars, I garantee you that I will mow your lawn;" no different than, "If you promise to pay me a hundred dollars, I will mow your lawn." The obligation of the two parties is the same.
(3) The state cannot legally change the terms of the contract unilaterally as they have attempted to do.
(4) Certain defined groups within Alabama already receive free college tution without PACT under state statutes. Four examples were given, including gill-net fishermen along the Gulf. Where does that money come from?
If the legislature fails to provide a solution, I feel good about the potential legal remedy based on what I have heard and discussed over the last few days. Legislature, do the right thing; be heroes not villains.

Re: Stop the maddness; think a little bit.

Well, I omitted a very important point: PACT people have a property right in our contracts. Under state and federal law, a person cannot be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. If it is not enough that we are being (potentially) defrauded or "jipped" out of our money, we have a legitimate civil rights claim under the Fourteenth Amendment to the US Constitution. I hope the courts don't have to decide; I hope the legislature will take care of this.

Re: Stop the maddness; think a little bit.

I am not a lawyer, but I have to think that the thousands of people who have already received full PACT contract tuition benefits will have some influence on the outcome if this issue goes to Court.  Why should some contract holders receive the full tuition benefits of their contracts, and others receive only partial benefit?  A discrimination claim always adds an interesting dimension to a lawsuit . . .surely the the legislature and the universities would not want to face discrimination charges as part of a legal battle.

Last edited by kittycollier (04-10-2010 10:53:00 pm)

Re: Stop the maddness; think a little bit.

Bama88 - A wonderful post.  It says it all.  Wish it could be in all the news media in its entirety.  Again - Well said!

Re: Stop the maddness; think a little bit.

Great post, Bama88.  While we hear universities profess how non-PACT students would have to bear the cost of PACT students under the current proposed legislation, along with a lot of other hooey, I too put pencil to paper and ran the exact figures on the impact of the 50-mile county rule, by institution, from 2002 to 2009.  For those few years alone, Alabama state institutions have vacated over $182 Million (uninflated) in tuition by granting in-state tuition to out-of-state students based solely on the 50-mile county rule.  (More have been granted in-state tuition based on other exemptions.) Specific numbers granted in-state tuition by institution are reported by the Alabama Dept of Higher Ed to the legislature and consolidated into various reports that are publicly accessible.  The rule was implemented in 1996, so the total number over time is much greater than $182M.  So if Alabama state universities are looking for a way to NOT pass on tuition increases to the IN-STATE taxpayers (non PACT and PACT), may I suggest they look at this revenue stream?

Re: Stop the maddness; think a little bit.

I also understand that University Faculty and staff receive tuition at 50%.  If they are so concerned about being fair Maybe they should give this benefit up. I (tax payer) never agreed to pay 50% of the faculty and staff tuition. However the State of Alabama did guarantee my child's tuition thru PACT.

Re: Stop the maddness; think a little bit.

PACT purchasers:

I would like to float an idea. Since a rough calculation estimates that the higher costs due to capping PACT students' tuition at 2.5% are not as high as insinuated by the universities and are say $50 per year. What if a "PACT Recovery Fee" was imposed on both PACT and non-PACT students across the board? Although I want everything that the PACT contract said I purchased (and will rightfully pay all the things that were not included), I could stand paying $50 a year. (Not a "gap" cost.) The fee cost should decrease some with the cost spread over 100% of the students. If this was done, then there would be no argument that non-PACTs are paying more than PACTs - everyone would be feeling the PACT problem pain. The focus might be put back on the true problem that has really been the culprit in PACT's demise - ridiculous tuition increases likely due to empire building.

Feedback?

Bama88

Re: Stop the maddness; think a little bit.

Pact People if you are ever going to support our PACT movement, now is the time.  We need to flood Montgomery with our people on Wednesday and Thursday.  This is the end of the legislative session.  It's do or die time for us!  It's for the children.  Have you told your kid yet, that he/she may not be able to attend the unviersity of choice yet?  Are you going to be there to fight for that child?  Or, are you going to let the child down?  Some of us will be there at 8:30 when the doors open.  It's a 4 hour drive for us.  Waiting for a few of us to do the job for you is not going to be enough this time.
(you'll have to excuse me, I'm 74 years old and tired to death of this stuff).